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Path: visi.com!news4.mr.net!mr.net!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!world1.bawave.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!wagner.spc.videotron.ca!clicnet!news.clic.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!newsjunkie.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!ott.istar!istar.net!winternet.com!news
From: dsgood@subzero.winternet.com (Daniel Goodman)
Newsgroups: mn.general,winternet.general
Subject: Winternet coup
Date: 8 Jul 1996 01:13:35 GMT
Organization: Winternet Corporation, Mpls, MN
Lines: 17
Distribution: local
Message-ID: <4rpnbv$anj@blackice.winternet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: subzero.winternet.com
Xref: visi.com mn.general:27636 winternet.general:411

The people now running Winternet may not want to give reasons -- but 
chances are their reasons (good or bad) will come out in court.  There 
are ways to keep court proceedings from the public -- but with at least 
one reporter now interested, they probably won't work if tried.

One thing is obvious -- the new regime is _much_ inferior at responding 
to customer complaints.

Another -- they made inadequate preparations.  They should have realized 
that  some customers would demand reasons.

The only word from them so far seems to boil down to 1)it had to be done 
and 2) it's not about money.   Both of which raise more questions than 
they answer.  Starting with -- did it have to be done _this_ way, 
including disruptions to service?

Dan Goodman

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Path: visi.com!winternet.com!news
From: cfuller@parka.winternet.com (Chris Fuller)
Newsgroups: winternet.general
Subject: Winternet coup
Date: 7 Jul 1996 16:18:50 GMT
Organization: Winternet Corporation, Mpls, MN
Lines: 33
Distribution: local
Message-ID: <4roo1a$1r6@blackice.winternet.com>
References: <7a3a1$qo5z2w@blackice.winternet.com>  <31DFEA2F.4867@winternet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: parka.winternet.com

This is off mn.online-service:

mn.online-service #1355 (2 more)                                      [1]+-[1]
From: kmathson@tundra.winternet.com (Kevin Mathison)                     
\-[1]
Newsgroups: mn.forsale,mn.general,mn.online-service
[1] For Sale: Winternet
Followup-To: mn.forsale,mn.general,mn.online-service
Date: Sun Jul 07 02:22:08 CDT 1996
Organization: StarNet Communications, Inc.
Lines: 10
X-Newsreader: NN 6.5.0 #2 (NOV)

"Handyman special" ISP with large user base.  I stole it and accidentally
broke it, and I don't have time to deal with fixing it, so I'm letting it
go cheap.  $50 or best offer, staff not included.

Kevin Mathison
---
- kmathson@winternet.com  An original founder of Starnet Communications. -
- StarNet Communications, Inc.                     Home of Winternet(tm) -
- For more info on StarNet Communications call:       (612) 333-1505     -
- Look for NEW StarNet locations! 'Coming to a local area code near you' -


BTW, that post on winternet.announce got zapped b4 I could read it..
maybe it was bogus? Perhaps this is bogus too... :)

I expect they'll be begging Mike to come back in a few days, I'm not
too worried. But I'm still hunting providers!

Chris


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Path: visi.com!news4.mr.net!mr.net!newshub.tc.umn.edu!newsstand.tc.umn.edu!usenet
From: kaszeta@me.umn.edu (Richard Kaszeta)
Newsgroups: mn.general,winternet.general
Subject: Re: Winternet coup
Date: 07 Jul 1996 22:52:28 -0500
Organization: University of MN ME Dept
Lines: 37
Sender: kaszeta@kenai.me.umn.edu
Distribution: local
Message-ID: 
References: <4rpnbv$anj@blackice.winternet.com>
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In-reply-to: dsgood@subzero.winternet.com's message of 8 Jul 1996 01:13:35 GMT
X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.1
Xref: visi.com mn.general:27640 winternet.general:413

In article <4rpnbv$anj@blackice.winternet.com> dsgood@subzero.winternet.com (Daniel Goodman) writes:

>Another -- they made inadequate preparations.  They should have realized 
>that  some customers would demand reasons.
>
>The only word from them so far seems to boil down to 1)it had to be done 
>and 2) it's not about money.   Both of which raise more questions than 
>they answer.  Starting with -- did it have to be done _this_ way, 
>including disruptions to service?

From personal experience (having been both a person that was fired and
a person doing the firing), I think they really botched this one.  If,
as people claim, they suddenly fired him and changed the locks, this
is what they should have expected (which is unacceptable).  Regardless
of the politics, this situation should have been handled
professionally.  The first choice would have been to simply inform
Mike H that he was being fired and if Mike is truly professional
(which from my 1 time meeting him I suggest is the case) he should
prepare everything for the new staff and turn things over gracefully,
and handle the politics after that.  Somehow this doesn't seem to have
happened.  As a second choice, if the majority owners expected
resistance from Mike, then they should've made sure they were capable
of handling the consequences of their manner of firing him.  This
doesn't seem to be the case either.

Just my two cents.

Rich


-- 
Richard W Kaszeta                      Graduate Student/Sysadmin
bofh@bofh.me.umn.edu               University of MN, ME Dept
http://www.me.umn.edu/0h/home/kaszeta/www.html
--
Insert witty comment here.


----------------------------------------------------------------------

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From: blink@winternet.com (Brian Link)
Newsgroups: mn.general,winternet.general
Subject: Re: Winternet coup
Date: Mon, 08 Jul 1996 06:41:59 GMT
Organization: Early Music Minnesota
Lines: 29
Distribution: local
Message-ID: <31e0ad21.94480868@news.winternet.com>
References: <4rpnbv$anj@blackice.winternet.com> 
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kaszeta@me.umn.edu (Richard Kaszeta) wrote:
> (edit)
>  Regardless
>of the politics, this situation should have been handled
>professionally.  The first choice would have been to simply inform
>Mike H that he was being fired and if Mike is truly professional
>(which from my 1 time meeting him I suggest is the case) he should
>prepare everything for the new staff and turn things over gracefully,
>and handle the politics after that.  Somehow this doesn't seem to have
>happened.  As a second choice, if the majority owners expected
>resistance from Mike, then they should've made sure they were capable
>of handling the consequences of their manner of firing him.  This
>doesn't seem to be the case either.

This whole thing seems like a pretty typical adolescent hissy fit.
"You don't agree? Well, fuck you then! You're fired! Ha ha!" It's only
a matter of time before this and other Winternet newsgroups start
getting censored by the new regime.

BLink


Brian Link in St. Paul, Minnesota
|\----------------------------------------
|-)--|---|--|\--|--|-/--------------------
|<---|---|--|-\-|--|<--@WINTERNET.COM-----
|-)--|==-|--|--\|--|-\--------------------
|/----------------------------------------
http://www.winternet.com/~blink/blink.html

----------------------------------------------------------------------

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From: lehman@winternet.com (Todd Lehman)
Newsgroups: mn.general,winternet.general
Subject: Re: Winternet coup
Date: 8 Jul 1996 07:22:05 GMT
Organization: StarNet Communications, Inc
Lines: 34
Distribution: local
Message-ID: <4rqcut$7p0@blackice.winternet.com>
References: <4rpnbv$anj@blackice.winternet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: parka.winternet.com
Xref: visi.com mn.general:27646 winternet.general:418

Daniel Goodman  writes:
>
> [...]
>
> The only word from them so far seems to boil down to 1)it had to be done 
> and 2) it's not about money.   Both of which raise more questions than 
> they answer.  Starting with -- did it have to be done _this_ way, 
> including disruptions to service?

One might conclude that Yes they had to do it this way, because they are
puerile pinheads -- feeble technical skills, weak business plan, no loyalty,
no balls, no principles.  That's certainly the way it appears, doesn't it?

This is a poorly executed, malodorous coup d'etat.  Word is that they stormed
into the Winternet offices on Friday, pointed fingers at Winternet employees
(including Mike Horwath) and screamed "You're fired!"  They even tried to
fire people who didn't work there because they were that clueless about the
business.  Then they had a locksmith change the locks, and they began shutting
things down and fucking things up.

No tact, no plan.  VERY anti-customer.  I was logged out several times on
Friday around noon when they were pulling plugs.  I was ticked off by that.

But what appalls me most about this little stunt is that they have been
slandering Mike Horwath when you call up and ask what the hell is going on.
At one point they were claiming that Mike sabotaged Winternet and stole
equipment.  Shyeah, right.  Now they are saying that Mike Frankowski and
Kevin Mathison have deemed that the sysadmin side of things was going okay
but that they weren't satisfied with the business side of things.  So what
ever happened to board meetings?

Can anyone else confirm or deny any of this?

--Todd Lehman

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Path: visi.com!visi.com!not-for-mail
From: chris@chezspaz.com (Chris Johnson)
Newsgroups: mn.general,winternet.general
Subject: Re: Winternet coup
Followup-To: mn.general,winternet.general
Date: 8 Jul 1996 14:33:48 -0500
Organization: Frederick Greiner House Preservation Society
Lines: 17
Sender: root@darla.visi.com
Distribution: mn
Message-ID: <4rrnqs$6u4@darla.visi.com>
References: <4rpnbv$anj@blackice.winternet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: darla.visi.com
Xref: visi.com mn.general:27651 winternet.general:420

Daniel Goodman (dsgood@subzero.winternet.com) wrote:
: 
: The only word from them so far seems to boil down to 1)it had to be done 
: and 2) it's not about money.   Both of which raise more questions than 
: they answer.  Starting with -- did it have to be done _this_ way, 
: including disruptions to service?
: 
: Dan Goodman

If it's not about money, they why do it?

It's not like it's about blood, sweat and tears, since Frankowski and
Mathison have apparently not invested anything into making the company
work except a little bit of pocket change way back in the beginning.

It's not about money?  How about greed?  One of the good old Seven
Deadly Sins.  That can't be very good for their karma, can it?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Path: visi.com!winternet.com!bemmer
From: bemmer@winternet.com (Brian Myers)
Newsgroups: winternet.general
Subject: Re: Winternet coup
Date: 7 Jul 1996 18:14:44 GMT
Organization: StarNet Communications, Inc
Lines: 28
Distribution: local
Message-ID: <4rouqk$7rd@blackice.winternet.com>
References: <7a3a1$qo5z2w@blackice.winternet.com>  <31DFEA2F.4867@winternet.com> <4roo1a$1r6@blackice.winternet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: subzero.winternet.com
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]



: BTW, that post on winternet.announce got zapped b4 I could read it..
: maybe it was bogus? Perhaps this is bogus too... :)

: I expect they'll be begging Mike to come back in a few days, I'm not
: too worried. But I'm still hunting providers!

: Chris

I doubt it, shareholders don't take over and then beg for anything.  
Beside, do any of you see Mike just sitting around for a while.  I would 
suspect (barring contract issues) that he will be starting another ISP 
very soon.

***Warning...warning...warning: blatant attempt to capitalize on the 
situation!***

If anyone knows any of the old employees of Winternet and they are 
interested in new jobs, have them e-mail me at bmyers@wavetech.net.

And seriously, best of luck to Mike and the crew.  I have a great deal of 
respect for them and what they have accomplished.  It is always a shame 
to see things turn out this way.

Brian Myers
VP Technical Services/Owner
Minnesota WaveTech, Inc.  

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Path: visi.com!winternet.com!news
From: david d `zoo' zuhn 
Newsgroups: mn.general,winternet.general
Subject: Re: Winternet coup
Date: 07 Jul 1996 20:11:51 -0500
Organization: Armadillo Zoo Enterprises, St. Paul, MN; +1 500 367 2483
Lines: 34
Sender: zoo@tundra.armadillo.com
Distribution: local
Message-ID: 
References: <4rpnbv$anj@blackice.winternet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tundra.winternet.com
In-reply-to: dsgood@subzero.winternet.com's message of 8 Jul 1996 01:13:35 GMT
X-Newsreader: Gnus v5.1
Xref: visi.com mn.general:27979 winternet.general:613


   The people now running Winternet may not want to give reasons -- but 
   chances are their reasons (good or bad) will come out in court.  There 
   are ways to keep court proceedings from the public -- but with at least 
   one reporter now interested, they probably won't work if tried.

These sorts of things are rarely settled in court.  Out-of-court
settlements are much easier to handle, cheaper in the long run, and
without having had testimony and documents entered as evidence, the
only ones who can tell the truth are the principals involved, who
usually agree to not disclose the terms of settlement.

   One thing is obvious -- the new regime is _much_ inferior at responding 
   to customer complaints.

I disagree.  I rarely got a useful answer to the problems I reported
before the management change.  So I don't see any significant loss of
service in terms of responsiveness.  Pages?  Never returned.  Phone
messages?  Into the black hole of voice mail.  E-mail?  Usually an
announcement that something was broken that affected XYZ, but XYZ
wasn't the problem I reported.

   The only word from them so far seems to boil down to 1)it had to be done 
   and 2) it's not about money.   Both of which raise more questions than 
   they answer.  Starting with -- did it have to be done _this_ way, 
   including disruptions to service?

You forgot one: they won't talk until tomorrow at the earliest when
they've spoken with their lawyer.  So asking them to do so now is
probably pointless.

-- 
 david d `zoo' zuhn   | Armadillo Zoo Enterprises, St. Paul, MN
 zoo@armadillo.com    |  http://www.armadillo.com/ for more info

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Path: visi.com!winternet.com!news
From: dsgood@winternet.com (Daniel Goodman)
Newsgroups: mn.general,winternet.general
Subject: Re: Winternet coup
Date: 8 Jul 1996 02:46:26 GMT
Organization: Winternet Corporation, Mpls, MN
Lines: 27
Distribution: local
Message-ID: <4rpsq2$hgq@blackice.winternet.com>
References: <4rpnbv$anj@blackice.winternet.com> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: tundra.winternet.com
Xref: visi.com mn.general:27984 winternet.general:620

In article ,
david d `zoo' zuhn   wrote:
>These sorts of things are rarely settled in court.  Out-of-court
>settlements are much easier to handle, cheaper in the long run, and
>without having had testimony and documents entered as evidence, the
>only ones who can tell the truth are the principals involved, who
>usually agree to not disclose the terms of settlement.
Nitpick:  WHEN BOTH SIDES ARE MINIMALLY COMPETENT, such things are 
usually settled out of court.  Remains to be seen if both are in this case.

>I disagree.  I rarely got a useful answer to the problems I reported
>before the management change.  So I don't see any significant loss of
>service in terms of responsiveness.  Pages?  Never returned.  Phone
>messages?  Into the black hole of voice mail.  E-mail?  Usually an
>announcement that something was broken that affected XYZ, but XYZ
>wasn't the problem I reported.
I can't tell how good answers given by the new regime are because I _have 
not gotten any_.  Perhaps they're now responding to beeper calls?

>>You forgot one: they won't talk until tomorrow at the earliest when
>they've spoken with their lawyer.  So asking them to do so now is
>probably pointless.
>If they really didn't talk to their lawyer _beforehand_, either there 
was a real emergency or they didn't realize there would be legal 
difficulties and questions from users.

Dan Goodman

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Path: visi.com!winternet.com!news
From: specter@winternet.com (specter is Michael J.  Larson)
Newsgroups: mn.general,winternet.general
Subject: Re: Winternet coup
Date: Mon, 08 Jul 1996 17:47:11 GMT
Organization: Member of the "NEW WINTERNET GUILD!"
Lines: 25
Distribution: local
Message-ID: <31e147e2.59619368@blackice.winternet.com>
References: <4rpnbv$anj@blackice.winternet.com> <4rqcut$7p0@blackice.winternet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-67-45.dialup.winternet.com
X-Newsreader: Forte Agent .99d/32.182
Xref: visi.com mn.general:27997 winternet.general:664

On 8 Jul 1996 07:22:05 GMT, lehman@winternet.com (Todd Lehman) wrote:


>But what appalls me most about this little stunt is that they have been
>slandering Mike Horwath when you call up and ask what the hell is going on.
>At one point they were claiming that Mike sabotaged Winternet and stole
>equipment.  Shyeah, right.  Now they are saying that Mike Frankowski and
>Kevin Mathison have deemed that the sysadmin side of things was going okay
>but that they weren't satisfied with the business side of things.  So what
>ever happened to board meetings?
>
>Can anyone else confirm or deny any of this?
>
>--Todd Lehman

If you have records of this, or proff of slander, it can be used as
evidence if Mike and the REAL winternet crew bring this thing to
court.  If you know who you were talking to when you heard these
things,  you should probly try to contact Mike himself.  Some ways
were listed in previous postings, so i am just pasting them in here
for convience.   H: 612-588-7740  drechsau@visi.com, drechsau@io.org,
drechsau@geeks.org    OR, you could try to contact Al Iverson, who
seems to know more about this then anyone else at  al@radparker.com
He would probly know where to forward your messages to.


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Path: visi.com!winternet.com!Fred!joelr
From: joelr@winternet.com (Joel Rosenberg)
Newsgroups: mn.general,winternet.general
Subject: Re: Winternet coup
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 1996 13:27:17
Organization: StarNet Communications, Inc
Lines: 44
Distribution: local
Message-ID: 
References: <4rpnbv$anj@blackice.winternet.com> <4rqcut$7p0@blackice.winternet.com> <31e147e2.59619368@blackice.winternet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ppp-66-72.dialup.winternet.com
X-Newsreader: Trumpet for Windows [Version 1.0 Rev A]
Xref: visi.com mn.general:28000 winternet.general:669

In article <31e147e2.59619368@blackice.winternet.com> specter@winternet.com (specter is Michael J.  Larson) writes:


>If you have records of this, or proff of slander, it can be used as
>evidence if Mike and the REAL winternet crew bring this thing to
>court. 

Realistically, this isn't the sort of thing that's going to end up going to 
trial, unless at least one side has an idiot for a lawyer and that lawyer has 
an idiot for a client.  

(We can dismiss any accusations of serious financial wrongdoing, because if 
anybody so much as *suspected* anybody else of that, they would have brought 
in the cops already.  Having the other party arrested would give either side a 
lot of leverage.  But nobody has, because, I suggest, there's nothing criminal 
that's gone on, on either side.)

But non-criminal != right; that's a whole 'nother matter, and while I find it 
disturbing that while Mike and his allies have been willing to post at length 
about their view of the situation, the present management has been very quiet. 
Kevin made a general statement that seems to me to be reasonable for somebody 
who is about to consult his lawyer, but I presume he'll have done that by the 
end of the day, and surely he'll want to have filled us all in by the end of 
the week.

I think it's reasonable to  give the present management time to explain 
themselves in more detail ("It's not about money," while intriguing, isn't 
much of an explanation), provided, of course, that the system runs acceptably 
well in the interim.  

As to a solution, there's always the obvious:  let either side state the price 
they think that a share of Winternet is worth, and let the other side 
choose to, within a reasonable time, either get bought out at that price or 
buy the other out at that very same price, and -- just as a guess, without any 
basis at all for that -- after some haggling and hassling over noncompete 
agreements, that's probably what will happen, with hard feelings on both 
sides, and some thousands of dollars spent on lawyers.  (As opposed to some 
tens of thousands spent on lawyers, over years, if this goes to trial.)

If it's going to happen that way, of course, regardless of who buys out whom, 
it's better for all concerned if that happens promptly.

But we'll see.  


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Path: visi.com!winternet.com!NewsWatcher!user
From: al@radparker.com (Al Iverson)
Newsgroups: mn.general,winternet.general
Subject: Re: Winternet coup
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 1996 00:59:54 +0100
Organization: NOT happy with Winternet Corp.
Lines: 21
Distribution: local
Message-ID: 
References: <4rpnbv$anj@blackice.winternet.com> <4rqcut$7p0@blackice.winternet.com> <31e147e2.59619368@blackice.winternet.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: mac.radparker.com
X-Newsreader: Value-Added NewsWatcher 2.0b24.0+
Xref: visi.com mn.general:28016 winternet.general:729

specter@winternet.com (specter is Michael J.  Larson) wrote:

: If you have records of this, or proff of slander, it can be used as
: evidence if Mike and the REAL winternet crew bring this thing to
: court.  If you know who you were talking to when you heard these
: things,  you should probly try to contact Mike himself.  Some ways
: were listed in previous postings, so i am just pasting them in here
: for convience.   H: 612-588-7740  drechsau@visi.com, drechsau@io.org,
: drechsau@geeks.org    OR, you could try to contact Al Iverson, who
: seems to know more about this then anyone else at  al@radparker.com
: He would probly know where to forward your messages to.

I always know what's going on. :) Although I rarely like what's going on. :(

Mike Horwath has email access due to the good graces of others. He can be
reached at: drechsau@radparker.com

Al Iverson

-- 
Al Iverson -- al@radparker.com -- http://radparker.com/